TOWN PLAN HEARING

CHARLOTTE PLANNING COMMISSION

7:00 P.M., THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 1999



Members
Present:

Chairman Al
Moraska 

Ed Melby

Dave Brown

Jeff McDonald

David Woolf

Jim Donovan



Members
Absent:

Josie Leavitt




Officials
Present: 

Planner Dean
Bloch




Guests Signed
in:

Jack Clemmons

Spin Richardson

Richard LeBoeuf

Shirley LeBoeuf

Michael Clapp

David
Blittersdorf

Mary Beth
Freeman

Marty Illick

Maryanne Gatos

Sandy Mayo

Sylvia Sprigg

Gary Thibault





1. General Business, approval of Minutes: The review of minutes of September 23rd and October
21st were postponed because of the lack of a right mix of a quorum who were at those meetings.

2. Gary Thibault (previous approval and question): Dean Bloch reported that the Thibaults have met with
the State and it was requested that they have a 10-acre lot instead of a 5-acre lot to be sure there is
enough land for adequate septic disposal.

Jim Donovan suggested that instead, an easement be created (and put on the deeds) on the other lot. The
lot itself would remain a 5-acre lot, and leave the pasture land as it is. Gary was advised to check with
Ernie to see if he would accept having a specified easement on the other lot; otherwise he will have to
have it re-surveyed. However most members did not see a problem with an easement.

3. Jack Clemmons Sketch Plan Review for 2-Lot Subdivision: Jack Clemmons brought in the
drawings and explained that all he had wanted to do was move the barn, then get a subdivision where the
barn was. The property was odd-shaped and he described the changes he is requesting.

Two months ago he discovered that he had 7' less frontage on his new, more definitive survey than was
on the original survey, so he had come in for a variance from the Zoning Board of Adjustment. That was
rejected because they told him it was not needed, and they suggested that the dimensions could be altered
through a reconfiguration of the side line. The old barn has been moved, as he showed on the map. This
is an odd-shaped property.

Dr. Clemmons referred to earlier Minutes in which he had talked about creating a 5-acre property for his
daughter and wanted to keep open space. He had a drawing that was submitted to the previous Zoning
Administrator on which the imaginary 5-acre line was drawn in the pasture. Now there is a new drawing
including dimensions that was done from an official survey. He showed the building envelope and said it
is now on an 11.1 acre of land. There will be 300' of frontage and the other frontage (on the 10.82 lot) is
also more than 300'.

The drawings for the septic were also included in the application and these were inspected by members.

Jim Donovan moved to classify this as a Minor Subdivision and Dave Brown seconded, with
approval vote of 6-0 with one member absent.

5. Other Business: Spin Richardson asked to present some preliminary ideas about some things with the
Burns property. He asked to do a presentation for "conceptual" approval similar to what was done with
the Demeter property. In the course of the next several months there will probably be 3 proposals
brought to the Planning Commission: 

(1) The LeBoeuf property, 

(2) The Senior Center, and 

(3) The Burns property.

The potential plans for the Burns property is what is being discussed, Spin said, representing that group.
This property has been subdivided into 5 parcels and could be further subdivided.

The Selectboard, the Land Trust and the Charlotte Community Trust group have come up with a joint
suggestion.

Parcel A is what includes the Flea Market,

Parcel B is a 10-acre section that sits in between the two, and

Parcel C is the part that is divided by Greenbush Road, and these three together are what were involved
with the Bond vote. Lot 1 across the road on the West is the part that is the Old Lantern itself, and the
other parcel which is proposed to be subdivided is behind the Old Lantern (65 acres).

Dealing with Mr. And Mrs. LeBoeuf, the common thing that pulls these parcels together is the septic
capacity. Their plan to be presented will show that there is adequate septic, part of it is on the Mack
property, and to complete their project they needed to access septic capacity that exists on the Burns
property.

If the projects go the way they hope, they will generate some housing lots, and the financial input from
those along with some boundary adjustments is proposed to carry the cost of the sale for this property.
Steve Kiernan, who is a member of this group is proposing to purchase parcel C and would donate to the
Town the septic needed to support town buildings. There may be a portion of the property on which he
is willing to provide space to create sports fields on the east side of Greenbush. He has also agreed to
allow town trails to cross over this property so that there would be a trail system access to Greenbush
Road.

The major thing they will be dealing with on the west side of Greenbush Road. It appears that the use of
the Old Lantern will be maintained, and some adjacent property owners may want to adjust their property
lines. They propose to subdivide the remainder of the property as a p.r.d. and they plan to preserve
Barber Hill and its scenic view easement of the lake. No house will be visible from Greenbush Road other
than a possible corner of a roof from one area of the road.

Country Home Products has an easement for septic in a little square that he described on the map. It sits
behind Earl Burn's old house. That old house will probably be dismantled. There is an easement that
allows public access to the back of the hill and they would do some trimming to be sure this is
maintained.

There is a 5th wheel trailer that is down at the back of the property, below the top and it was viewed as a
possible house site. There is a pump-out station for camper trailers, and there are at present several septic
sites. This piece of property of 3/4 acre (which he was pointing to) has approved septic for 6500 gallons.

Al Moraska asked if they would consider clustering the houses. Spin responded that much of the land
down low is too low to have a lake view. They hope to maximize the revenue while having the smallest
impact on the property. The revenue will be used for the senior center.

Some of the concerns are of a 400' + well that is owned by a neighborhood in the area; they don't want
the septic to be anywhere near that. There used to be 21 houses on that well and now there are 8; it
produces 75 gallons/minute.

Ed Melby asked, assuming there were no major pitfalls, what is the time frame to proceed with these 3
parcels. Spin said the piece of property for the senior center needs to be dedicated first. He said they will
be back within the next month, probably within the next month with some plans. They wanted to protect
the Old Lantern and also to protect the rest of the property.

Al Moraska asked if they could negotiate with Country Home Products to free up their easement and have
Country Home Products use another area. Spin said they have already spoken with them and since
Country Home Products have already done the engineering they are not interested in changing sites for
their septic.

This is a starting point that can afford some subtle twists and still work; they wanted to be sure and
incorporate trails, conservation and views, and also provide septic for the community buildings and
possibly some recreational fields in the long run.

Jim Donovan gave an opinion that the high septic and water capability should be kept in reserve so that
whatever we do now is not wasted. Spin said they don't have engineering studies on the whole thing, but
Lockwoods shared what they had. 

Spin also related that when trains were running all the time they stopped in Charlotte to get water on their
way to Burlington, so there are several pipes in the ground along the tracks which give water year-round
and are spring-fed.

Nancy Sabin had a question of the Planning Commission: "Who should they save what for whom, and
when, and why?" Jim Donovan replied that if there is potential there to meet several Town needs, he
doesn't think it's a good idea to waste it. He said he has no idea what the future might bring, so he'd
rather see them keep it available than to tie it up. If they know that they have an area that has good septic,
then he thinks they should not put a plat of houses on it.

Nancy asked if Jim wanted them to plan a public water supply or a public septic system, but Jim said he
didn't want them to plan anything at the moment. He said he is not saying they should plan anything on it.
Spin said they are not planning anything on that part of the land; where they hope to have those lots are
down the hill from the area that is a prime location for septic sometime in the future.

Spin Richardson asked the members if they think the concept that is being discussed will have problems.
Jim said the amount of home sites could possibly be more than five, while not necessarily being as high
as 35. Spin said the home sites would be done in a p.r.d., whenever such a subdivision comes before the
Town. He said he had just been up on top of that hill and realized that it would have been a million-dollar
lot - the view is gorgeous -- but instead they want to preserve that area. To the group it seemed that a
residential use was best for the land. An office building with a lake view still didn't seem to be a good use
for it.

Jeff McDonald asked how the Old Lantern would fit into that concept - when there are weddings and
other things going on there, how would they prevent the sound of the music, etc. from the parties and
other functions from disturbing the residents over the hill? Spin said that is a good point, and only one of
the proposed house sites is close enough to be affected. David Woolf suggested that some creative
landscaping could help them solve that, and Spin said there is already a good stand of large sugar maples
and other old trees that will help stifle the noise.

Dave Brown asked who would run the Old Lantern. Spin said they have been talking with several people
at this point who would keep it in the same service-oriented usage. It will be sold. Jeff asked whether
there is some kind of deed restriction that would prevent someone from buying it and turning it into a
home instead. It would be a shame if the town lost its only asset of that type. Jeff said he hoped some
arrangement could be made when they sell it to put that kind of restriction on the deed.

Dean said that as far as Zoning goes; they could be allowed as many as 12 houses on that piece of land.
Al said they still would have to look at compatibility with neighboring parcels.

5. General Business - Announcement by Dean Bloch: The town has gotten a $12,500 grant to do a
Village Master Plan. They had asked for $15,000 but are grateful to have been chosen to receive this. Al
thanked Dean for his work in pursuing this project.

Dean reminded members that they have received a handout about a meeting on November 18th for the
Regional Plan where there will be an open format for discussion. They will be going back and looking at
doing it from the ground up and listening to comments. On the land use map the district that is listed as a
"mixed use" in Shelburne is right on the line of Charlotte. Dean said he had talked with Kate Bortz and she
had said she didn't feel that was appropriate so they will have some comments about this designation.

Al said there is a conflict because that is the evening of our regular Planning Commission meeting; he
asked what's on that evening's schedule. Dean said there is only one item, a sketch plan review for a
subdivision modification for Bruska. Dean also reminded them that for the first meeting in December the
Perry's project will come up, and if the trail does need to be located on the maps that has to be done then.

Dean said he can submit written comments for the Regional Plan if they want, but it appears Jim
Donovan may be volunteering to attend the hearing. Ed said some of the main objections appear to be
coming from other towns but Jim said they may need to hear some positive support as well.

Dean reported that the process for the Charlotte Town Plan is getting down to the wire in terms of
getting it to the Selectboard for the time period they need for warning for the Town Meeting. There are
some maps that are still to come but they will have to submit what they have at the time as the final
completion of some of the maps is beyond our control.

Nancy Sabin asked when the public can have these changes to look at. Dean said they will be available at
the next warned hearing.

Al asked for any comments from the Planning Commission on these changes that Dean has made thus
far. Ed said what Dean has done so far is in line with what they have discussed as necessary. Dave
Brown said what they have done is what they have intended, and all agreed that it could be continually
fine-tuned more, but the time has come to tie it up for this year.

Dean said in the note from the Charlotte Conservation Commission there are some areas they question.
Ed said there are some loose ends that are beyond the Planning Commission's control, and perhaps in a
year from now they will still be beyond our control.

They speak of the Environmental Resource map. There are some things on it that are not on any other
map, so they should keep it because of endangered species and productive woodlands. The UVM
students did the heavily wooded areas, and now Dave Brown said, they are trying to identify changes
from the old maps. They have gone up in a plane to do some of the wildlife corridors and habitat, which
Dave showed, and some volunteers are going to walk some of the areas to and report their observations
to help complete the new map.

In answer to a question from the audience, Marty Illick stated that "Natural Areas" is a State term. There
needs to be a glossary and the Regional Commission has promised to send us one. The members' have
recommended, as has Marty Illick, that the maps not be taken out because each map has its own
purpose.

There is a listing of cultural and recreational resources. Historic districts are on a State inventory list and
if that is the only map on which certain things are listed we should keep the map in there. Actually, in
Charlotte the only historic district that is in the Zoning Regulations is Thompson's Point.

Nancy Sabin spoke about one that is listed by the State as being in an historic district, up across from the
Marble Store. It used to be a garage and many years ago Ed said it was a new car dealer's location.
Nancy said they had to go through a lot of red tape from the State when they wanted to remodel it and it
took a long time for them to succeed.

Dean said those other districts are on the State register but he doesn't know how that differs except that
when the Town registered Thompson's Point it then always comes under Design Review. Dean will try
to find out the difference in designations in a way that they can explain it to residents who need to come
before the Planning Commission. There are 64 sites and districts in the town and they should have a list
posted in the Plan, if possible. They will ask Kate Bortz and Jay Appleton.

Al noted that although there are historic sites on the map it does not indicate hiking or snowmobile trails.
There should be some notation made on the map.

Marty said there is a Scenic/Conservation map, and the Selectboard raised some concern that some of the
private roads were on the map. She wanted them taken off. At least they should insert "public" before
roads. Marty said it is her inclination to take off all private roads, but Al reminded folks that all the "911 "
roads need to be on there. Jeff said he thinks there should be a standard base map and not change it. (It
includes the surface water.) Dave Brown said they don't have any private roads on the new wildlife
corridors map.

Nancy Sabin asked why they have meters instead of miles. They said (governments) were still trying to
convert everything over to the metric system. "It'll never happen," commented Nancy.

There was other discussion about identification of agricultural districts, about curb cuts on Route 7,
about (on the map) removal of a town trail that went up someone's driveway, about having a list that
includes conservation easements, and on a map showing dry hydrants, to put that Dry Hydrants title on
that map so one knows what the map is about. 

There are non-game and natural heritage sites taken from Vermont Non Game and Natural Heritage sites,
and a notation should say how many acres these represent.

Marty discussed an item on page 60 which talks about the easement on both sides of a stream. Just
because there is this easement doesn't mean that people can walk on them; however, they can walk
below the high water mark of a stream according to State rules. Item 12, what are allowed uses on
Conservation District wetlands? No building structures are allowed.

David Blittersdorf asked how the Town Plan encourages conservation and renewable energy. There is no
means in the Town Plan to do this but it is too late to address this as a subject in this version. It will be
addressed in the new Zoning Regulations.

Jim Donovan asked about the designation of "important wetlands." All these end up being wildlife
corridors and though small areas are part of corridors the vegetation grows thick. Jim voiced an opinion
that because wetlands are identified, more valuable sites upland are wiped out because a wet meadow is
labeled. He asked that they don't just blanketly list all small, insignificant wet areas as wetlands.

On page 104 Item 3 recommends that if development rights are reduced on a property their tax bill will
reflect the loss of use-value. There was much discussion on this because, as Nancy Sabin for one,
pointed out, there would be no incentive for anyone to give up their development rights, therefore the
Planning Commission decided to leave it in.

Al moved to adjourn and Ed seconded, but there was no vote because Nancy Sabin asked why the
proposed zoning changes had not yet been discussed. Jim discovered some more changes to the Town
Plan that had not been discussed at the earlier Planning Commission hearing. The information on these
changes were in a separate handout and were not requested by the Planning Commission. 

There were some corrections to the Commercial and Industrial Development Committee paragraph on
page 27 that were now discussed. The industrial zone along Route 7 was voted on several years ago and
cannot just be re-zoned without a public hearing and vote, as Nancy and some other members of the
audience verified. There are some criteria listed and Jim Donovan said that these criterium must be
evaluated either for all of the areas, or none of the areas. Leaving the list of criteria in there is alright, but
the evaluation must be done for all, or for none, to be fair. They don't know if the rest of the commercial
zones meet the tests or not at this point.

Al Moraska agreed that they would have to review all the commercial areas and not just one. Nancy Sabin
said when the present Town Plan was passed each commercial and industrial zone was voted on
individually and that one can't be taken out without the whole town deciding on it. Jim said this criteria
doesn't take it out. It may recommend changes, but it does not change the zoning by itself. Jim agrees
that the way it is written there is that recommendation, but it puts in a criteria to use when revisiting the
zoning.

Nancy Sabin asked, "What is a scenic area?" It can be in the eye of the beholder and could be the whole
town, all agreed. Dave Brown said there are people who drive around town and note where it is that
people stop and take photographs, then they put these places on a "scenic" designation map. Finally, Al
said, the word "scenic areas" can be replaced by "preservation areas." Also they should add such other
items as "marinas, summer residential areas, a public beach and the Route 7 corridor."

Jim advised Dean to treat both adjacent towns on Route 7 the same when they are discussing commercial
and scenic areas. Route 7 does have some preserved scenic vistas now, so if discussions were saying
that there was a concern that commercial areas in North Ferrisburgh are spreading north, then there
should be also a concern about the commercial areas of Shelburne could spread south. Some folks
pointed out that Yandow's in North Ferrisburgh is right next to the commercial and industrial district in
Charlotte that some folks want to change.

At 10:00 p.m. Jeff McDonald moved to adjourn and Al seconded, the vote was 6-0 with one member
absent.



APPROVED BY THE CHARLOTTE PLANNING COMMISSION